Re: [chirp_users] chirp_users Digest, Vol 111, Issue 14
I couldn't agree more with your observations Chris. The state of
programming in ham radio is embarrassing at best, I would bet that everyone on this board knows someone who started in radio, got a handheld, and then left the Hobby and discussed because they could not get it programmed. That kind of thing is not at all uncommon and goes beyond embarrassing to the point of being harmful to the Hobby. The problem in radio right now is that every manufacture insists on being an island and not working together. System Fusion, d-star, p25, and so forth. These are all great modes that have their place but where is the manufacturer willing to put their pride down and openly allow licensing to everybody to use "their" mode? And everyone wonders why digital voice never catches on. The programming situation is even worse. The only radio I have owned which uses a standard USB cable is a Kenwood aprs HT. Not exactly an entry-level radio. And in the complexities of software, and it becomes a nightmare. Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it. Not exactly state-of-the-art technology these days, yet ham radio manufacturers are still reliving the 80s. How many of those new hands who quit the hobby would still be hands if they could program as easily as they could save photos on their cell phone? Brandon
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The whole concept of programmable devices that can be programmed to destruction by interfering with the 'wrong' memory is flawed from the start and I don't understand why people buy them. The whole concept of programmable devices that require the use of non-standard cables which in turn require the use of out-of-date drivers on the programming device is ridiculous. Why these radios have gained such a following is beyond me. Why most of them have not been returned for refunds the minute they exhibit the faults that I have read about on here time and time again is also beyond me. Whatever happened to Plug And Play?
As an example, even the cheapest printer has more complex user-selectable parameters available than most of the programmable radios. Printers come with drivers that work, with user-friendly user-interfaces that only allow the programming of whatever is sensibly programmable, and with hardware interfaces that are connected to the programming device via standard cables available from the average supermarket down the road. When I bought my UV5R it came with a programming cable that didn't work, and an incomprehensible CD full of software that is mostly useless. When I finally got something to work the user-interface to the spread-sheet lookalike was at best clunky - I would describe it as awful. There were no instructions to speak of and no support from the suppliers.
When I add up the hours I have spent and apply a reasonable hourly rate it becomes obvious that these radios are not cheap at all.
I recently read somewhere that recent handhelds from at least one of the big three suffers from the same problems. That's it then - the end of amateur radio is nigh. My one regret is that me and my UV5R have contributed to that because I did not return it for a refund.
(The UV5R is not a particularly good radio anyway. The colour display uses far too much power and cannot cope with bright sunlight. Mono displays are generally far better in both respects, and who really needs colour?)
73, Chris, an Amateur Radio operator since 1973.
You're forgetting that this is a hobby - one that requires some technical aptitude. And it's supposed to require that. That's why the FCC even lets us (in the USA) have this hobby.
Most of the programming software is done by volunteers, free of charge. The commercial programs don't have enough sales to warrant a lot of time spent on them. If you don't like what's available, you are welcome to create something better - that's what this hobby is all about. :)
- Trevor, AG7GX
On 3/22/2018 3:28 PM, Brandon Clark wrote:
I couldn't agree more with your observations Chris. The state of programming in ham radio is embarrassing at best, I would bet that everyone on this board knows someone who started in radio, got a handheld, and then left the Hobby and discussed because they could not get it programmed. That kind of thing is not at all uncommon and goes beyond embarrassing to the point of being harmful to the Hobby. The problem in radio right now is that every manufacture insists on being an island and not working together. System Fusion, d-star, p25, and so forth. These are all great modes that have their place but where is the manufacturer willing to put their pride down and openly allow licensing to everybody to use "their" mode? And everyone wonders why digital voice never catches on. The programming situation is even worse. The only radio I have owned which uses a standard USB cable is a Kenwood aprs HT. Not exactly an entry-level radio. And in the complexities of software, and it becomes a nightmare. Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it. Not exactly state-of-the-art technology these days, yet ham radio manufacturers are still reliving the 80s. How many of those new hands who quit the hobby would still be hands if they could program as easily as they could save photos on their cell phone? Brandon
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The whole concept of programmable devices that can be programmed to destruction by interfering with the 'wrong' memory is flawed from the start and I don't understand why people buy them. The whole concept of programmable devices that require the use of non-standard cables which in turn require the use of out-of-date drivers on the programming device is ridiculous. Why these radios have gained such a following is beyond me. Why most of them have not been returned for refunds the minute they exhibit the faults that I have read about on here time and time again is also beyond me. Whatever happened to Plug And Play? As an example, even the cheapest printer has more complex user-selectable parameters available than most of the programmable radios. Printers come with drivers that work, with user-friendly user-interfaces that only allow the programming of whatever is sensibly programmable, and with hardware interfaces that are connected to the programming device via standard cables available from the average supermarket down the road. When I bought my UV5R it came with a programming cable that didn't work, and an incomprehensible CD full of software that is mostly useless. When I finally got something to work the user-interface to the spread-sheet lookalike was at best clunky - I would describe it as awful. There were no instructions to speak of and no support from the suppliers. When I add up the hours I have spent and apply a reasonable hourly rate it becomes obvious that these radios are not cheap at all. I recently read somewhere that recent handhelds from at least one of the big three suffers from the same problems. That's it then - the end of amateur radio is nigh. My one regret is that me and my UV5R have contributed to that because I did not return it for a refund. (The UV5R is not a particularly good radio anyway. The colour display uses far too much power and cannot cope with bright sunlight. Mono displays are generally far better in both respects, and who really needs colour?) 73, Chris, an Amateur Radio operator since 1973. ________________________________
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But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming.
On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:
Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it.
Not to be overly pedantic, but CSV is not a Microsoft-specific format. CSV stands for "Comma Separated Value" and it's a very simple format. Lots of software can handle it on all platforms. I can view them even on my Android phone.
That said, most Windows systems are set up by default to open a CSV file in Excel, but that doesn't really have bearing on the format itself.
On 03/22/2018 07:26 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming.
On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:
Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it.
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Umm...I second what Aubrey said. I was using CSV files on TRS-80s back in the day.
On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 8:30 PM, Aubrey Turner aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com wrote:
Not to be overly pedantic, but CSV is not a Microsoft-specific format. CSV stands for "Comma Separated Value" and it's a very simple format. Lots of software can handle it on all platforms. I can view them even on my Android phone.
That said, most Windows systems are set up by default to open a CSV file in Excel, but that doesn't really have bearing on the format itself.
On 03/22/2018 07:26 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming.
On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark kl7bsc@gmail.com kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:
Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it.
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.CSV, .DOC, .PUB and .PPT definitely are Microsoft proprietary file formats although Microsoft have now given up taking people to court trying to protect them. You're right that they will now open in many different systems (except .PUB) but often with differing results.
If you need to be universal, use Open Document Foundation's file formats.
On 22 March 2018 at 20:30 Aubrey Turner aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com wrote:
Not to be overly pedantic, but CSV is not a Microsoft-specific format. CSV stands for "Comma Separated Value" and it's a very simple format. Lots of software can handle it on all platforms. I can view them even on my Android phone. That said, most Windows systems are set up by default to open a CSV file in Excel, but that doesn't really have bearing on the format itself. On 03/22/2018 07:26 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote: > >But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming. > > > On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark <kl7bsc@gmail.com> mailto:kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it. > >_______________________________________________ chirp_users mailing list chirp_users@intrepid.danplanet.com mailto:chirp_users@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_users This message was sent to Aubrey Turner at aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com mailto:aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com To unsubscribe, send an email to chirp_users-unsubscribe@intrepid.danplanet.com mailto:chirp_users-unsubscribe@intrepid.danplanet.com >
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Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF 9H3GN), e-mail nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, GCARES, EAA382.
CSV was around before Microsoft even existed.
Example:
* http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/370/fortran/GC28-6884-0_IBM_FORTR...
See page 17. The above referenced manual was written in 1972.
More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values
On 03/22/2018 07:56 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
.CSV, .DOC, .PUB and .PPT definitely are Microsoft proprietary file formats although Microsoft have now given up taking people to court trying to protect them. You're right that they will now open in many different systems (except .PUB) but often with differing results.
If you need to be universal, use Open Document Foundation's file formats.
On 22 March 2018 at 20:30 Aubrey Turner aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com wrote:
Not to be overly pedantic, but CSV is not a Microsoft-specific format. CSV stands for "Comma Separated Value" and it's a very simple format. Lots of software can handle it on all platforms. I can view them even on my Android phone.
That said, most Windows systems are set up by default to open a CSV file in Excel, but that doesn't really have bearing on the format itself.
On 03/22/2018 07:26 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming.
On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark kl7bsc@gmail.com mailto:kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:
Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it.
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Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF 9H3GN), e-mail nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, GCARES, EAA382.
You're equating things that are fundamentally different. Yes, .doc, .pub, and .ppt are proprietary MS formats (though I don't believe they've ever taken people to court over them). But .csv isn't, and never has been--in fact, it's been around longer than Microsoft has by about three years.
On 3/22/18 8:56 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
.CSV, .DOC, .PUB and .PPT definitely are Microsoft proprietary file formats although Microsoft have now given up taking people to court trying to protect them. You're right that they will now open in many different systems (except .PUB) but often with differing results.
If you need to be universal, use Open Document Foundation's file formats.
On 22 March 2018 at 20:30 Aubrey Turner aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com wrote:
Not to be overly pedantic, but CSV is not a Microsoft-specific format. CSV stands for "Comma Separated Value" and it's a very simple format. Lots of software can handle it on all platforms. I can view them even on my Android phone.
That said, most Windows systems are set up by default to open a CSV file in Excel, but that doesn't really have bearing on the format itself.
On 03/22/2018 07:26 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming.
On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark kl7bsc@gmail.com mailto:kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:
Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it.
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Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF 9H3GN), e-mail nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, GCARES, EAA382.
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OK, so I meant to say .XLS.
I'm only human.
On 22 March 2018 at 22:21 Dan Brown dan@familybrown.org wrote:
You're equating things that are fundamentally different. Yes, .doc, .pub, and .ppt are proprietary MS formats (though I don't believe they've ever taken people to court over them). But .csv isn't, and never has been--in fact, it's been around longer than Microsoft has by about three years. On 3/22/18 8:56 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote: > >.CSV, .DOC, .PUB and .PPT definitely are Microsoft proprietary file formats although Microsoft have now given up taking people to court trying to protect them. You're right that they will now open in many different systems (except .PUB) but often with differing results. If you need to be universal, use Open Document Foundation's file formats. > > > On 22 March 2018 at 20:30 Aubrey Turner <aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com> mailto:aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com wrote:Not to be overly pedantic, but CSV is not a Microsoft-specific format. CSV stands for "Comma Separated Value" and it's a very simple format. Lots of software can handle it on all platforms. I can view them even on my Android phone. That said, most Windows systems are set up by default to open a CSV file in Excel, but that doesn't really have bearing on the format itself. On 03/22/2018 07:26 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote: > > > >But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming. > > > > > On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark <kl7bsc@gmail.com> mailto:kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it. > > > >_______________________________________________ chirp_users mailing list chirp_users@intrepid.danplanet.com mailto:chirp_users@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_users This message was sent to Aubrey Turner at aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com mailto:aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com To unsubscribe, send an email to chirp_users-unsubscribe@intrepid.danplanet.com mailto:chirp_users-unsubscribe@intrepid.danplanet.com > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________chirp_users mailing list chirp_users@intrepid.danplanet.com mailto:chirp_users@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_users This message was sent to Nigel Gunn, W8IFF at nigel@ngunn.net mailto:nigel@ngunn.net To unsubscribe, send an email to chirp_users-unsubscribe@intrepid.danplanet.com mailto:chirp_users-unsubscribe@intrepid.danplanet.com > >Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF 9H3GN), e-mail nigel@ngunn.net mailto:nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, GCARES, EAA382. _______________________________________________ chirp_users mailing list chirp_users@intrepid.danplanet.com mailto:chirp_users@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_users This message was sent to Dan Brown at dan@familybrown.org mailto:dan@familybrown.org To unsubscribe, send an email to chirp_users-unsubscribe@intrepid.danplanet.com mailto:chirp_users-unsubscribe@intrepid.danplanet.com >
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Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF 9H3GN), e-mail nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, GCARES, EAA382.
Thank Zeus that we finally have that resolved! :-)
Tom Henderson
On 03/22/2018 10:57 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
OK, so I meant to say .XLS.
I'm only human.
On 22 March 2018 at 22:21 Dan Brown dan@familybrown.org wrote:
You're equating things that are fundamentally different. Yes, .doc, .pub, and .ppt are proprietary MS formats (though I don't believe they've ever taken people to court over them). But .csv isn't, and never has been--in fact, it's been around longer than Microsoft has by about three years.
On 3/22/18 8:56 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
.CSV, .DOC, .PUB and .PPT definitely are Microsoft proprietary file formats although Microsoft have now given up taking people to court trying to protect them. You're right that they will now open in many different systems (except .PUB) but often with differing results.
If you need to be universal, use Open Document Foundation's file formats.
On 22 March 2018 at 20:30 Aubrey Turner aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com mailto:aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com wrote:
Not to be overly pedantic, but CSV is not a Microsoft-specific format. CSV stands for "Comma Separated Value" and it's a very simple format. Lots of software can handle it on all platforms. I can view them even on my Android phone.
That said, most Windows systems are set up by default to open a CSV file in Excel, but that doesn't really have bearing on the format itself.
On 03/22/2018 07:26 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming.
On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark kl7bsc@gmail.com mailto:kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:
Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it.
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Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF 9H3GN), e-mail nigel@ngunn.net mailto:nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, GCARES, EAA382.
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Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF 9H3GN), e-mail nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, GCARES, EAA382.
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And .doc is a file extension, not a format. Microsoft commandeered it to use for saving Word files in a proprietary format, but .doc was used as a file extension before Microsoft as well.
On 3/22/2018 8:21 PM, Dan Brown wrote:
You're equating things that are fundamentally different. Yes, .doc, .pub, and .ppt are proprietary MS formats (though I don't believe they've ever taken people to court over them). But .csv isn't, and never has been--in fact, it's been around longer than Microsoft has by about three years.
On 3/22/18 8:56 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
.CSV, .DOC, .PUB and .PPT definitely are Microsoft proprietary file formats although Microsoft have now given up taking people to court trying to protect them. You're right that they will now open in many different systems (except .PUB) but often with differing results.
If you need to be universal, use Open Document Foundation's file formats.
On 22 March 2018 at 20:30 Aubrey Turner aubrey.c.turner@gmail.com wrote:
Not to be overly pedantic, but CSV is not a Microsoft-specific format. CSV stands for "Comma Separated Value" and it's a very simple format. Lots of software can handle it on all platforms. I can view them even on my Android phone.
That said, most Windows systems are set up by default to open a CSV file in Excel, but that doesn't really have bearing on the format itself.
On 03/22/2018 07:26 PM, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
But a csv file is proprietary Microsoft format so can't use that. Many of us are not on Microsoft operating systems. And if you make it just like a cellphone, then you're at the mercy of the radio manufacturer to provide the programming.
On 22 March 2018 at 17:28 Brandon Clark kl7bsc@gmail.com mailto:kl7bsc@gmail.com wrote:
Radios needs to behave like phones, plug them into the computer with a USB cable and then simply drag and drop your CSV file into the right folder for the radio to read it.
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Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF 9H3GN), e-mail nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, GCARES, EAA382.
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Nigel, that’s one of the most absurd statements I’ve seen in a long time.
According to computerhope.com a CVS file is
“… a simple file format used to store tabular data, such as a spreadsheet or database. Files in the CSV format can be imported to and exported from programs that store data in tables, such as Microsoft Excel or OpenOffice Calc. CSV stands for "comma-separated values".Jan 24, 2018
Sorry guy, but a CSV file is nothing more than columns of ascii (or Unicode) text with the fields separated by commas. In fact CSV files can be imported into most text editors and massaged there with no ramifications (( MS Word and it’s ilk are NOT text editors! ))
participants (8)
-
Al Jones -
Aubrey Turner -
Brandon Clark -
Dan Brown -
John Kemker -
Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
Tom Henderson -
Trevor Holyoak