CHIRP has an entry for the 7800. It connected to my radio but with a dire warning about how awful things could happen. Has anyone had this work, or made their radios explode? I'm worried!
I dunno. I talked to the rep from Yaesu who warned me that Chirp could permanently brick my radio. He did not appreciate my feedback that if a user program could permanently disable a device, that struck ME as a pretty clear design flaw. Most devices are designed to protect core OS functions. That remains my opinion, but since I have not heard from any Yaesu users that this actually happened, I am going to use Chirp anyway. If the radio dies, I will just stop using or recommending Yaesu.
-----Original Message----- From: John Oliver via Users users@lists.chirpmyradio.com Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 1:59 PM To: users@lists.chirpmyradio.com Cc: John Oliver jnojr1@gmail.com Subject: [users] TYT 7900
CHIRP has an entry for the 7800. It connected to my radio but with a dire warning about how awful things could happen. Has anyone had this work, or made their radios explode? I'm worried! _______________________________________________ Users mailing list users@lists.chirpmyradio.com https://lists.chirpmyradio.com/postorius/lists/users.lists.chirpmyradio.com To unsubscribe, send an email to users-leave@lists.chirpmyradio.com To report this email as off-topic, please email users-owner@lists.chirpmyradio.com List archives: https://lists.chirpmyradio.com/hyperkitty/list/users@lists.chirpmyradio.com/
Once upon a time, the FT-817 was being programmed by chirp in a way Yaesu didn't envision, apparently touching memory locations that should not have been touched. Those locations were on a write-limited device (only good for so many updates), and were destroyed after a number of updates.
Yaesu used to repair the parts, but then they couldn't source the part anymore and stopped being able to fix that very particular problem.
Once the issue was identified, chirp changed the way it programmed the radio going forward.
At one time, radios were bricked, but it's a resolved issue now.
It seems Yaesu adopted a party line based on its experience and has not changed its opinion.
I glossed over a lot of details, but I think those are the salient points.
Ken, N2VIP
On Oct 1, 2024, at 18:14, Stiv Ostenberg via Users users@lists.chirpmyradio.com wrote:
I dunno. I talked to the rep from Yaesu who warned me that Chirp could permanently brick my radio. He did not appreciate my feedback that if a user program could permanently disable a device, that struck ME as a pretty clear design flaw. Most devices are designed to protect core OS functions. That remains my opinion, but since I have not heard from any Yaesu users that this actually happened, I am going to use Chirp anyway. If the radio dies, I will just stop using or recommending Yaesu.
Just FYI, John is asking about the TYT 7800/7900, not Yaesu. Even though these radios *look* like a direct knock-off of their Yaesu namesakes, they're entirely different radios internally.
I dunno. I talked to the rep from Yaesu who warned me that Chirp could permanently brick my radio. He did not appreciate my feedback that if a user program could permanently disable a device, that struck ME as a pretty clear design flaw. Most devices are designed to protect core OS functions. That remains my opinion, but since I have not heard from any Yaesu users that this actually happened, I am going to use Chirp anyway.
You're exactly right. I've heard this for years from Yaesu (via users). My response is that saying that "software can hurt our hardware via the programming interface" is equivalent to them just admitting that their hardware (and engineering) is terrible.
As the primary developer of a majority of the drivers (including a majority of the Yaesu drivers) I can say that I've never actually permanently harmed a Yaesu, even though what I have to do during reverse engineering is far more dangerous than using the finished product. That said, I can confirm that of all the vendors I've worked on (which is basically all of them) Yaesu is by FAR the most fragile by a long shot. I would say every $20 chinese radio I've ever written a driver for is more robust, which is pretty sad.
If the radio dies, I will just stop using or recommending Yaesu.
I know this is flame-bait, but I already don't recommend them based on what I've learned about their engineering from reverse engineering their radios. I've all but stopped agreeing to work on Yaesu drivers, not because I'm afraid of their fragility, but because they're just such a pain to work on. They're the *only* manufacturer that refuses to let the computer control the radio (i.e. initiate the clone in or out). When you're writing a driver for a radio, you have to do that about a billion times and having to coordinate pushing a button (or sometimes three) on the radio and the computer at the same time is just ridiculous in 2024. Also, every icom I've ever seen uses the *exact* same cloning protocol as all the others. Every Yaesu I've ever seen uses something different, with different quirks and behaviors. It's insanity.
(Please, if you love using Yaesus, that's cool, no need to reply to the list and say so. A lot of people prefer them and that's cool, I'm just commenting about what I've learned by reverse engineering a bunch of them.)
--Dan
I have one more issue with them the implementation of a digital protocol then making it accessible only using their radios. Yes I know that the repeaters are made by them but creating walled garden in amateur radio has no place in amateur radio.
There are a multitude of reasons to move away from them, but just the fact that the continue to spread the tail that Chirp damages their radios is enough for me, add the YSF thing and they are cooked and done in my view.
On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 6:37 PM Dan Smith via Users < users@lists.chirpmyradio.com> wrote:
Just FYI, John is asking about the TYT 7800/7900, not Yaesu. Even though these radios *look* like a direct knock-off of their Yaesu namesakes, they're entirely different radios internally.
I dunno. I talked to the rep from Yaesu who warned me that Chirp could
permanently brick my radio. He did not appreciate my feedback that if a user program could permanently disable a device, that struck ME as a pretty clear design flaw. Most devices are designed to protect core OS functions. That remains my opinion, but since I have not heard from any Yaesu users that this actually happened, I am going to use Chirp anyway.
You're exactly right. I've heard this for years from Yaesu (via users). My response is that saying that "software can hurt our hardware via the programming interface" is equivalent to them just admitting that their hardware (and engineering) is terrible.
As the primary developer of a majority of the drivers (including a majority of the Yaesu drivers) I can say that I've never actually permanently harmed a Yaesu, even though what I have to do during reverse engineering is far more dangerous than using the finished product. That said, I can confirm that of all the vendors I've worked on (which is basically all of them) Yaesu is by FAR the most fragile by a long shot. I would say every $20 chinese radio I've ever written a driver for is more robust, which is pretty sad.
If the radio dies, I will just stop using or recommending Yaesu.
I know this is flame-bait, but I already don't recommend them based on what I've learned about their engineering from reverse engineering their radios. I've all but stopped agreeing to work on Yaesu drivers, not because I'm afraid of their fragility, but because they're just such a pain to work on. They're the *only* manufacturer that refuses to let the computer control the radio (i.e. initiate the clone in or out). When you're writing a driver for a radio, you have to do that about a billion times and having to coordinate pushing a button (or sometimes three) on the radio and the computer at the same time is just ridiculous in 2024. Also, every icom I've ever seen uses the *exact* same cloning protocol as all the others. Every Yaesu I've ever seen uses something different, with different quirks and behaviors. It's insanity.
(Please, if you love using Yaesus, that's cool, no need to reply to the list and say so. A lot of people prefer them and that's cool, I'm just commenting about what I've learned by reverse engineering a bunch of them.)
--Dan _______________________________________________ Users mailing list users@lists.chirpmyradio.com https://lists.chirpmyradio.com/postorius/lists/users.lists.chirpmyradio.com To unsubscribe, send an email to users-leave@lists.chirpmyradio.com To report this email as off-topic, please email users-owner@lists.chirpmyradio.com List archives: https://lists.chirpmyradio.com/hyperkitty/list/users@lists.chirpmyradio.com/
Dan,
Understand, but I was responding to Stiv's comment about a (seemingly) blanket statement about CHIRP potentially bricking any radio made by a Yaesu representative.
What I described is the best info I could find when I looked into that claim a few years ago.
RT Systems has a video comparing how Yaesu's software is used to program their radios with how the RT Systems software programs the same radio much easier.
Not trying to prolong the Yaesu discussion, but here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRy-TO588sk
Quite a dramatic difference.
Ken, N2VIP
On Oct 1, 2024, at 18:37, Dan Smith via Users users@lists.chirpmyradio.com wrote:
Just FYI, John is asking about the TYT 7800/7900, not Yaesu. Even though these radios *look* like a direct knock-off of their Yaesu namesakes, they're entirely different radios internally.
I dunno. I talked to the rep from Yaesu who warned me that Chirp could permanently brick my radio. He did not appreciate my feedback that if a user program could permanently disable a device, that struck ME as a pretty clear design flaw. Most devices are designed to protect core OS functions. That remains my opinion, but since I have not heard from any Yaesu users that this actually happened, I am going to use Chirp anyway.
You're exactly right. I've heard this for years from Yaesu (via users). My response is that saying that "software can hurt our hardware via the programming interface" is equivalent to them just admitting that their hardware (and engineering) is terrible.
As the primary developer of a majority of the drivers (including a majority of the Yaesu drivers) I can say that I've never actually permanently harmed a Yaesu, even though what I have to do during reverse engineering is far more dangerous than using the finished product. That said, I can confirm that of all the vendors I've worked on (which is basically all of them) Yaesu is by FAR the most fragile by a long shot. I would say every $20 chinese radio I've ever written a driver for is more robust, which is pretty sad.
If the radio dies, I will just stop using or recommending Yaesu.
I know this is flame-bait, but I already don't recommend them based on what I've learned about their engineering from reverse engineering their radios. I've all but stopped agreeing to work on Yaesu drivers, not because I'm afraid of their fragility, but because they're just such a pain to work on. They're the *only* manufacturer that refuses to let the computer control the radio (i.e. initiate the clone in or out). When you're writing a driver for a radio, you have to do that about a billion times and having to coordinate pushing a button (or sometimes three) on the radio and the computer at the same time is just ridiculous in 2024. Also, every icom I've ever seen uses the *exact* same cloning protocol as all the others. Every Yaesu I've ever seen uses something different, with different quirks and behaviors. It's insanity.
(Please, if you love using Yaesus, that's cool, no need to reply to the list and say so. A lot of people prefer them and that's cool, I'm just commenting about what I've learned by reverse engineering a bunch of them.)
--Dan _______________________________________________ Users mailing list users@lists.chirpmyradio.com https://lists.chirpmyradio.com/postorius/lists/users.lists.chirpmyradio.com To unsubscribe, send an email to users-leave@lists.chirpmyradio.com To report this email as off-topic, please email users-owner@lists.chirpmyradio.com List archives: https://lists.chirpmyradio.com/hyperkitty/list/users@lists.chirpmyradio.com/
I had a similar chat with yaesu about this. if their stuff is so fragile then I'll buy gear that's less fragile elsewhere. they want people to license their API (at an extra cost) and they seem to. forget that they're serving the amateur radio market which is supposed to provide opportunities to tinker with stuff.
- Henry N6HCM
Oct 1, 2024 19:14:37 Stiv Ostenberg via Users users@lists.chirpmyradio.com:
I dunno. I talked to the rep from Yaesu who warned me that Chirp could permanently brick my radio. He did not appreciate my feedback that if a user program could permanently disable a device, that struck ME as a pretty clear design flaw. Most devices are designed to protect core OS functions.
Did you just say Yaesu wants people to license (and pay for that license) to get access to their radio APIs?
And you say you were told this by a Yaesu representative?
I find that hard to believe.
I only know of one model of one radio that was bricked by third-party software (original FT-817, not FT-817nd), and it was because the third-party software did something it never should have done, and wore out a component that had a limited write cycle.
You are certainly free to make all future purchasing decisions based on a 25 year-old problem in one radio, but that seems sorta like a weak argument against Yaesu.
Then again, Kenwood shipped some radios where the exhaust fans were installed backward, so you'll probably never buy a Kenwood radio because of that. (They also shipped a bunch of radios with defective filters as I recall)
And you can't go with Icom, a number of examples of one of their current radios shipped and some heat sinks on certain ICs inside the radio weren't installed correctly...
Personally, I'd cut Yaesu some slack - those very same radios that shipped with the write-limited device are still popular, still in operation after 25 years. I think that's a testament to good design & engineering, but opinions vary.
Ken, N2VIP
On Oct 6, 2024, at 08:46, Henry Mensch via Users users@lists.chirpmyradio.com wrote:
I had a similar chat with yaesu about this. if their stuff is so fragile then I'll buy gear that's less fragile elsewhere. they want people to license their API (at an extra cost) and they seem to. forget that they're serving the amateur radio market which is supposed to provide opportunities to tinker with stuff.
- Henry N6HCM
Oct 1, 2024 19:14:37 Stiv Ostenberg via Users users@lists.chirpmyradio.com:
I dunno. I talked to the rep from Yaesu who warned me that Chirp could permanently brick my radio. He did not appreciate my feedback that if a user program could permanently disable a device, that struck ME as a pretty clear design flaw. Most devices are designed to protect core OS functions.
Users mailing list users@lists.chirpmyradio.com https://lists.chirpmyradio.com/postorius/lists/users.lists.chirpmyradio.com To unsubscribe, send an email to users-leave@lists.chirpmyradio.com To report this email as off-topic, please email users-owner@lists.chirpmyradio.com List archives: https://lists.chirpmyradio.com/hyperkitty/list/users@lists.chirpmyradio.com/
participants (6)
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Chuck Hast -
Dan Smith -
Henry Mensch -
John Oliver -
Ken Hansen -
Stiv Ostenberg