[chirp_devel] Thoughts on upload/download terminology
Hi all,
Someone just filed a bug about the fact that CHIRP-next uses only "upload" and "download" in the Radio menu. This wasn't intentional, but is a departure from what it used to be, which is "Upload TO radio" and "Download FROM radio". Changing that completely now *might* catch some users off-guard, but I think he's probably right that the single-word options are too vague.
Any strong opinions on moving from upload/download (to/from radio), to "Read from Radio" and "Write to Radio"? Even "Read" and "Write" might be okay, given they're under the "Radio" menu.
https://chirp.danplanet.com/issues/10303?next_issue_id=10301
I initially knee-jerked in my usual hates-change way to moving to read/write but perhaps that would be better, and does (I think) match other software.
--Dan
Probably thinking about it too hard myself, but here are some thoughts.
Upload and download infer a temporary, potentially unstable connection or a remote/temporary target.
Read and write infer something less remote and much more stable and consistent.
I think upload and download make the most sense for this use case considering protocols in use and the temporary connection or potentially unstable one.
Read and write might set expectations too high for some users.
2cents.
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023, 17:34 Dan Smith via chirp_devel < chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com> wrote:
Hi all,
Someone just filed a bug about the fact that CHIRP-next uses only "upload" and "download" in the Radio menu. This wasn't intentional, but is a departure from what it used to be, which is "Upload TO radio" and "Download FROM radio". Changing that completely now *might* catch some users off-guard, but I think he's probably right that the single-word options are too vague.
Any strong opinions on moving from upload/download (to/from radio), to "Read from Radio" and "Write to Radio"? Even "Read" and "Write" might be okay, given they're under the "Radio" menu.
https://chirp.danplanet.com/issues/10303?next_issue_id=10301
I initially knee-jerked in my usual hates-change way to moving to read/write but perhaps that would be better, and does (I think) match other software.
--Dan _______________________________________________ chirp_devel mailing list chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_devel Developer docs: http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Developers
Probably thinking about it too hard myself, but here are some thoughts.
Upload and download infer a temporary, potentially unstable connection or a remote/temporary target.
Read and write infer something less remote and much more stable and consistent.
I think upload and download make the most sense for this use case considering protocols in use and the temporary connection or potentially unstable one.
Read and write might set expectations too high for some users.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, from one over-thinker to another, I think you over-thought that real good :)
Looking at several other packages, here's what I find:
KC8UNJ Commander: Read/Write Kenwood MCP: Read/Write Kenwood Commercial: Read/Write Icom CS: Read/Write Yaesu ADMS: Get/Send CHIRP-legacy: Download/Upload
Sure seems like read/write is the more common thing. "Because Yaesu did it" is never a good reason, IMHO, so that's an easy outlier.
I think that means read/write would put us on par with most everything else. Anyone else have data points or opinions? Maybe some non-Americans with different connotations for those words?
--Dan
I'm very accustomed to upload and download terminology, but I've always felt there's a bit of vagueness or ambiguity to those terms.
I think switching to read and write technology makes a ton of sense. It's very clear and explicit. Zero chance of confusion. I love it. It won't be a hard change for users because it makes so much sense.
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023, 4:34 PM Dan Smith via chirp_devel < chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com> wrote:
Hi all,
Someone just filed a bug about the fact that CHIRP-next uses only "upload" and "download" in the Radio menu. This wasn't intentional, but is a departure from what it used to be, which is "Upload TO radio" and "Download FROM radio". Changing that completely now *might* catch some users off-guard, but I think he's probably right that the single-word options are too vague.
Any strong opinions on moving from upload/download (to/from radio), to "Read from Radio" and "Write to Radio"? Even "Read" and "Write" might be okay, given they're under the "Radio" menu.
https://chirp.danplanet.com/issues/10303?next_issue_id=10301
I initially knee-jerked in my usual hates-change way to moving to read/write but perhaps that would be better, and does (I think) match other software.
--Dan _______________________________________________ chirp_devel mailing list chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_devel Developer docs: http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Developers
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 6:34 PM Dan Smith via chirp_devel chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com wrote:
Hi all,
Someone just filed a bug about the fact that CHIRP-next uses only "upload" and "download" in the Radio menu. This wasn't intentional, but is a departure from what it used to be, which is "Upload TO radio" and "Download FROM radio". Changing that completely now *might* catch some users off-guard, but I think he's probably right that the single-word options are too vague.
Any strong opinions on moving from upload/download (to/from radio), to "Read from Radio" and "Write to Radio"? Even "Read" and "Write" might be okay, given they're under the "Radio" menu.
https://chirp.danplanet.com/issues/10303?next_issue_id=10301
I initially knee-jerked in my usual hates-change way to moving to read/write but perhaps that would be better, and does (I think) match other software.
--Dan
For as long as I have been using CHIRP, I have had to help many users that get the download/upload terminology reversed. To be clearer it should at least include TO/FROM. For example "Upload TO radio" or "TO Radio" with the corresponding "Download FROM radio" or "FROM radio".
Most factory software that I have used will have a bubble pop up that just says "read" or "wright" depending on which way the cloning operation is going. If "Read" and "Write" is decided upon, it might also be worth changing the hotkeys to "Ctrl-R" and "Ctrl-W".
Jim KC9HI
For as long as I have been using CHIRP, I have had to help many users that get the download/upload terminology reversed. To be clearer it should at least include TO/FROM. For example "Upload TO radio" or "TO Radio" with the corresponding "Download FROM radio" or "FROM radio".
Most factory software that I have used will have a bubble pop up that just says "read" or "wright" depending on which way the cloning operation is going. If "Read" and "Write" is decided upon, it might also be worth changing the hotkeys to "Ctrl-R" and "Ctrl-W".
OMG, I didn't think about the crazy hotkey muscle memory I'm going to have to break if we change ;)
Jim, in your best politician voice, you didn't actually answer the question, but it sounds like you see more real-world confusion over upload/download than read/write. So I'm going to put down "the senator from the midwest prefers read/write" unless you move to strike... :)
--Dan
I like upload / download, because it's consistent with so many other tools, though not necessarily radio-related tools. I use FileZilla a lot, so I use upload / download there. Cloud storage systems like iCloud and Google Drive talk about upload and download. People download photos from their phones to their computers. I think people are used to upload meaning "send from here to other place / device" and download meaning "bring to my computer from other place / device". I don't think radios need to be different from those common usage patterns.
Martin. KD6YAM
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 3:34 PM Dan Smith via chirp_devel < chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com> wrote:
Hi all,
Someone just filed a bug about the fact that CHIRP-next uses only "upload" and "download" in the Radio menu. This wasn't intentional, but is a departure from what it used to be, which is "Upload TO radio" and "Download FROM radio". Changing that completely now *might* catch some users off-guard, but I think he's probably right that the single-word options are too vague.
Any strong opinions on moving from upload/download (to/from radio), to "Read from Radio" and "Write to Radio"? Even "Read" and "Write" might be okay, given they're under the "Radio" menu.
https://chirp.danplanet.com/issues/10303?next_issue_id=10301
I initially knee-jerked in my usual hates-change way to moving to read/write but perhaps that would be better, and does (I think) match other software.
--Dan _______________________________________________ chirp_devel mailing list chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_devel Developer docs: http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Developers
As a computer consultant, I see people struggle with terminology & meanings. A surprising number are still uncertain about copy & paste, preferring to slowly type everything by hand. Most "retail users" don't have a deep understanding of the terms, so the terms don't mean much to them. I try to explain that: The internet is a cloud up in the sky & we are down here on earth, therefore: Upload is sending up to the internet cloud and Download is receiving from the internet cloud.
It's still not 100% successful at being correctly remembered nor making sense to them. Terminology about transmitting dates to/from radios is even more difficult because which way is "up"? Which direction is upload or download when both devices are on the same desk?
For that reason I like Read / Write. Maybe even more clear is "Read From radio" and "Write To radio".
Regards,
Best, Dave Nathanson KG6ZJO
On Jan 20, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Dan Smith via chirp_devel chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com wrote:
Hi all,
Someone just filed a bug about the fact that CHIRP-next uses only "upload" and "download" in the Radio menu. This wasn't intentional, but is a departure from what it used to be, which is "Upload TO radio" and "Download FROM radio". Changing that completely now *might* catch some users off-guard, but I think he's probably right that the single-word options are too vague.
Any strong opinions on moving from upload/download (to/from radio), to "Read from Radio" and "Write to Radio"? Even "Read" and "Write" might be okay, given they're under the "Radio" menu.
https://chirp.danplanet.com/issues/10303?next_issue_id=10301
I initially knee-jerked in my usual hates-change way to moving to read/write but perhaps that would be better, and does (I think) match other software.
--Dan _______________________________________________ chirp_devel mailing list chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_devel Developer docs: http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Developers
I’ve also been in the computer industry my whole life so understand which way is up and down, but I know we are a small minority and I whole heartedly support the suggestion of “read/write radio” for clarity to all those that aren’t as much a geek as we are.
My 2c
-Brad Schuler, K0BAS
On Jan 21, 2023, at 1:16 PM, Dave Nathanson KG6ZJO via chirp_devel chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com wrote:
As a computer consultant, I see people struggle with terminology & meanings. A surprising number are still uncertain about copy & paste, preferring to slowly type everything by hand. Most "retail users" don't have a deep understanding of the terms, so the terms don't mean much to them. I try to explain that: The internet is a cloud up in the sky & we are down here on earth, therefore: Upload is sending up to the internet cloud and Download is receiving from the internet cloud.
It's still not 100% successful at being correctly remembered nor making sense to them. Terminology about transmitting dates to/from radios is even more difficult because which way is "up"? Which direction is upload or download when both devices are on the same desk?
For that reason I like Read / Write. Maybe even more clear is "Read From radio" and "Write To radio".
Regards,
Best, Dave Nathanson KG6ZJO
On Jan 20, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Dan Smith via chirp_devel chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com wrote:
Hi all,
Someone just filed a bug about the fact that CHIRP-next uses only "upload" and "download" in the Radio menu. This wasn't intentional, but is a departure from what it used to be, which is "Upload TO radio" and "Download FROM radio". Changing that completely now *might* catch some users off-guard, but I think he's probably right that the single-word options are too vague.
Any strong opinions on moving from upload/download (to/from radio), to "Read from Radio" and "Write to Radio"? Even "Read" and "Write" might be okay, given they're under the "Radio" menu.
https://chirp.danplanet.com/issues/10303?next_issue_id=10301
I initially knee-jerked in my usual hates-change way to moving to read/write but perhaps that would be better, and does (I think) match other software.
--Dan _______________________________________________ chirp_devel mailing list chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_devel Developer docs: http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Developers
chirp_devel mailing list chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com http://intrepid.danplanet.com/mailman/listinfo/chirp_devel Developer docs: http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Developers
participants (7)
-
Brad & Cindy Schuler -
Dan Smith -
Dave Nathanson KG6ZJO -
David Boucha -
Jim Unroe -
Martin Cooper -
Matthew Poletiek