[chirp_devel] How to brick an FT-60
Hi guys,
Long (for the details) sad story, but interesting, I think.
To refresh your recollection, in early February I tentatively signed up to reverse engineer the map of settings in the Yaesu FT-60 memory, pending any surprises that made this a bigger task than I expected.
It wasn't, and I have it pretty well mapped out, not only the settings, but the banks and scan limit registers and a few other features of the radio, plus nonvolatile operating state, like mem vs vfo. I've also fixed a few bugs (skips are completely broken in the current code) and some other smaller ones.
I was making another pass through all the settings to make sure the map hadn't shifted around as I continued to code - loading saved image files, checking in the browser and diffs, etc.
I wanted to do a direct "nothing else different" diff for setting 11, CW WRT. I had started out in this project not doing that in all cases, sort of making a change and comparing to the previous image, rather than setting to A, setting to B, then diffing. Sort of dotting i's and crossing t's before declaring it done. So I took the file that I downloaded from the radio after setting CW WRT with the radio buttons a month or so ago. Uploaded to the radio with the idea of changing CW WRT to a different string with no other change, downloading and diffing. Upload finished, powered off/on ...
The backlight comes on. There's the usual beep sequence. Nothing else. No display. No audio, even with the squelch full open. Nothing else. Buttons don't beep. PTT doesn't light the xmit led.
Since I've put it in clone mode it a few hundred times now, and can do it without the benefit of the display, I tried several flavors of reset. Nope. There is the _different_ beep sequence you get when you power on with Moni pressed. I tried uploading my operational image. Nope. It's a brick. Tried removing and replacing the battery. Tried a different battery. Google shows a few things that sound like mine, but not with any solution.
So I figure it's two years old, out of warranty, and the several hundred uploads and downloads I've done over the past two months possibly constitute abuse. A new one is $160 with tax, HRO in town has a dozen in stock, and I need an HT. The HRO guys had never seen one like this.
Get it home, upload a normal operating image file, check out a few Tx/Rx with my wife on her HT, and it seems good to go.
So back to coding. Upload that same image file. Now I have two bricks. I thought about attaching the image file, but maybe disseminating it isn't a good idea. It's available if anyone really wants it.
I don't believe it was edited after downloading from the radio, but that was Feb 7, and I can't be positive about that at this point. Are there any telltales wrt that? It looks like it's just the radio bits with no header info, so I'm guessing not, but I could be missing something.
Sooooo..... - Any ideas about unbricking my radios? - Any ideas about how this file could brick an FT-60? - For the new one I'll try for warranty coverage, not much to lose.
- And the big one: I 'm not sure I want to keep doing this project. Worst case, I can buy a third FT-60 and get on with life. I will say say that I'll never upload _that_ file, maybe put CW WRT off limits for settings, but since I have no idea what could do this, I'm a little worried that it could happen at any time as I muck around in the settings.
If I can download from the radio and upload the same file and do this, that's a little scary.
I can afford a few $160 radios, but not without a little wincing. OTOH, I've probably downloaded 300-400 times, and uploaded the better part of 100, counting operational images unrelated to this development, and never had this happen before.
BTW, my cable is from RT Systems.
Any thoughts?
-dan
So back to coding. Upload that same image file. Now I have two bricks.
Oh dear :(
For what it's worth, this is the first time I've heard of anyone really bricking their radio when doing this sort of development. I've definitely uploaded a bad image into a radio and had it freak out, but a reset or uploading a new image has always resolved it. The chinese radios are really accepting of anything you want to send them, and I have made errors with them that blew nearly random data in that definitely caused them some heartache. However, their basic functions always allowed a new image to be uploaded with no permanent harm done.
I thought about attaching the image file, but maybe disseminating it isn't a good idea. It's available if anyone really wants it.
I think it's safe on this list (with a proper warning and maybe a creative filename), but I agree you should be careful with it.
- Any ideas about unbricking my radios?
- Any ideas about how this file could brick an FT-60?
So, Yaesu is *really* bad about a few things that are relevant here:
1. An Icom examines the image on the way in at every block. As soon as it encounters a broken thing, it will stop the clone and do a full reset. I've actually figured out where I've gone wrong before by carefully examining the address range that was being uploaded when it kicked to narrow down the problem. Unfortunately, Yaesus will let you upload pretty much anything you want into the radio. I've seen them be very confused before with a bad image, but I've never had trouble getting them into clone mode to fix it.
2. Yaesu's "full reset" is not anything close. It usually means setting the "empty bit" on all of the memory channels, resetting some of the settings and the VFO buffers. If you do a reset and then download a fresh image, you'll find almost all of your data still on the radio. This makes it really hard to get a pristine image of a yaesu because you (apparently) have to do it right after you unbox it. Icoms and others, for example, do an *actual* reset when you ask, zeroing most of the memory and really initializing everything.
- For the new one I'll try for warranty coverage, not much to lose.
I would try it too, of course. I think in all fairness, you should avoid mentioning that you were using CHIRP, as many people have been _sure_ that CHIRP killed their battery or detuned their antenna, and have told their manufacturer of it. If I were you, I wouldn't provide any reason :)
Also, I have received special reset instructions from a manufacturer to resolve other issues that required a more potent reset than what is in the manual. It's entirely possible that you could call support (if you haven't already) and get some special procedures to help out.
- And the big one: I 'm not sure I want to keep doing this project.
Worst case, I can buy a third FT-60 and get on with life. I will say say that I'll never upload _that_ file, maybe put CW WRT off limits for settings, but since I have no idea what could do this, I'm a little worried that it could happen at any time as I muck around in the settings.
I don't blame you!
If I can download from the radio and upload the same file and do this, that's a little scary.
Well, it sounds like it's not 100% clear that that's what happened, and like you, I can't imagine that actually causing a problem. However, the way most Yaesus do (or don't do) their checksums, it's easy for a bad cable or connector to corrupt data on the way in without the radio knowing. By the time the radio gets to the end and determines that the checksum is wrong, the bad data is already in place. If it's not going to do a full reset (automatically or when asked), then a bad cable could absolutely end up with you getting broken data into the radio.
Any thoughts?
I'm sure you're not looking for any sarcastic remarks here, but if anything, the above makes me even less likely to spend money on Yaesus in the future. I know brand loyalty is based on lots of things, and people choose radios based on a lot more than what is under the hood, but honestly, bricking a radio through the user-accessible serial port should *not* be possible, IMHO.
Thanks a lot for sharing your story, and I'm really sorry it ended up the way it did for you. I've done something like sixty radio models and have yet to brick one, and was proud to tell people that it had never happened. Sounds like I'll have to change my story a bit now.
--Dan
On Sat, 2014-03-22 at 17:17 -0700, chirp.cordless@xoxy.net wrote:
Hi guys,
Long (for the details) sad story, but interesting, I think.
To refresh your recollection, in early February I tentatively signed up to reverse engineer the map of settings in the Yaesu FT-60 memory, pending any surprises that made this a bigger task than I expected.
I would try de-soldering the 24C256 and soldering a new one in. Most probable cause of its death is passing the maximum write cycles for the eeprom. With luck the yaesu firmware is bright enough to initialise a blank one ..... with luck !
Jon
I've had my Yeasu V6R bricked once but as noted I was able to recover it with a hard reset. I recommend calling their support group before you take more drastic measures. 73, Alan - W6ARH
-----Original Message----- From: chirp_devel-bounces@intrepid.danplanet.com [mailto:chirp_devel-bounces@intrepid.danplanet.com] On Behalf Of jon Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:02 PM To: chirp_devel@intrepid.danplanet.com Subject: Re: [chirp_devel] How to brick an FT-60
On Sat, 2014-03-22 at 17:17 -0700, chirp.cordless@xoxy.net wrote:
Hi guys,
Long (for the details) sad story, but interesting, I think.
To refresh your recollection, in early February I tentatively signed up to reverse engineer the map of settings in the Yaesu FT-60 memory, pending any surprises that made this a bigger task than I expected.
I would try de-soldering the 24C256 and soldering a new one in. Most probable cause of its death is passing the maximum write cycles for the eeprom. With luck the yaesu firmware is bright enough to initialise a blank one ..... with luck !
Jon
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